Saturday, January 24, 2009

Catholic follies

Pope Benedict XVI calls homosexuality a "tendency ordered to an intrinsic moral evil, and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder."

Pope John Paul II said that homosexuaity is an “ideology of evil,” and when discussing gay marriage said that, “It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man.”"

Pope Benedict has now reversed the ex-communication of a group of far-right schistmatic Bishops, one of whom is a Holocaust denier.
the move came just days after one of the four, British Bishop Richard Williamson, was shown in a Swedish state TV interview saying that historical evidence "is hugely against 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed."
My marriage harms no one, but the Pope considers us an "ideology of evil", while this man who endorses evil and excuses one of the greatest horrors of the modern world is "redeemable".

Go figure.

28 comments:

Erp said...

I think they will have a fine dance explaining this away (officially they were excommunicated for not having papal permission to become bishops and since they have now recognized the Pope's authority the Pope can forgive them for that and lift the excommunication even though at least one is a holocaust denier). In particular how are they going to deal with these 4 bishops now they are back in the fold? They are still bishops even if illicitly ordained.

How much of Vatican II does Benedict plan to roll back?

Cany said...

Next thing you know, teh gays will be responsible for eclipses!

David |Dah • veed| said...

He shows more of his true colors with each passing day.

Ann said...

Raise your hand if you think B-XVI is a self hating closet case dumping his pathology on the world.

Göran Koch-Swahne said...

Me ;=)

Fred Schwartz said...

BTW, these four came from the "order" expressly established to thwart, deny, reject, and otherwise "close the doors and windows" on Vatican II. I think it is the order of St. Pius X. Has someone slipped down the rabbit hole again?

Göran Koch-Swahne said...

Ruth Gleddhil has got some background in The Times

http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill

including a clip from Swedish Television...

Cany said...

Drat. Goran, is there any way to download this or something, I cannot get it to play. WAH!

Anonymous said...

Raise your hand if you think B-XVI is a self hating closet case dumping his pathology on the world.

Have you read anything? There is some theology here, though you don't have to buy into it. Frankly, the stupidity of these comments does more harm to your cause, than not. Argue with the reasoning, and maybe people will listen, throw out anti-catholic crap and we will continue to tag yourself as ideological lightweights with an overtly offensive political agenda... maybe that's cool with you. those of us on the whole gay thing, maybe, should be rethought, can't help but to fall back into our trenches and remember who we're dealing with.

Ann said...

Dear anonymous - how about signing your name and coming out of anonymity?

JCF said...

we will continue to tag yourself

...said "Anonymous". So rich!

***

IT, I think the headline would have been a perfect place to substitute (the word-created-for-you) "Popoid" for "Catholic". ;-/

[Sends another virtual hug to {{{FranIAm}}}. CBS Evening News is about to do a story on RC bishops arresting laity fighting parish closings. :-( ]

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous Coward,

We LOVE Catholics...we ARE Catholics...daily I´m reminded, thanks to the Bishop of Rome, why HRH Henry wanted to stop the political/spiritual insanity of the red hoofed intruder...I mean, really, +Benedict makes Henry VIII look like a blessed savior as he only murdered a few folks while Pope Fancyfrock instigates worldwide CRIMES OF HATE!

Get a grip on reality, it just takes some getting used to...

Lady Pricilla Paza Verde

IT said...

No, JCF, these really are Catholic follies, and offends many good RC (such as Fran and my beloved).

IT said...

I cross posted this over at DailyKos where there have been over 100 comments.

They are quite interesting; although some are hung up on the Nazi history of the Pope, several have pointed out a few points to ponder.

1) How did a theologian (Ratzinger) who was pro-V-2 which was revolutionary in its day become so conservative in his old age that his regime seems to be actively rolling back some of its principles?

2) Is this a purely poitical attempt to shore up the far right wing of the church to allow them to continue to fight the liberal "Cafeteria Catholics", so that the Curia et al figure they can ride out the horror at allowing this Nazi Apologist to remain a Bishop?

In general, I view all religion as politics (as you should all know by now). In the case of B XVI, I do not think it's relevant whehter he's a closet queer or not; I will agree with Anonymous to that degree--the first argument to me is what political advantage BXVI finds in such a tin-ear move.

My broader argument is that weighting gay relationships as intrinisic moral evils in the face of "redeeming" a man who denies one of the greatest moral evils of our time, is a complete failure of logic and moral argument.

IT

JCF said...

Right now, Father Dominic (the MOST noxious of the noxious priests at EWTN) is ranting against the President (charging him w/ "violating the Constitution" . . . simply because he's Pro-Choice, of course).

But he made a little Freudian slip: trying to say "female", he instead said "free male". Pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

****

I think we're talking past each other, IT, but I think the very fact that something "offends many good RC" like Fran and BP {*}, shows that offensive thing to be Popoid, and NOT Roman Catholic. JMO.

{*} In BP's case, I rather prefer to think of her as a "pre-Episcopalian". ;-)

Fred Schwartz said...

Vatican 2 literally "opened the doors and windows and let in a breath of fresh air". For some reason, ever since John 23 died everyone has been scrambling to slam the doors and windows shut. Just food for thought -- Garry Wills pointed out that the "office of pope" hangs on such a delicate balance that almost anything would bring it crumbling down. Perhaps the really good theologians know this and have no idea how to write around it so it can happen gracefully. Remember, there is a whole gaggle of folks in Rome designed to do nothing else but keep "humpty dumpty together". And, should say a couple of key issues be resolved then the only thing left is the Pope -- then what?

IT said...

Another interesting point from both the Kos site and StreetProphets, where I also cross posted, is the reaction of some Catholics--good folks, as far as I can tell, but angry at me.

I posted two facts:
1) Two Popes have called gay relationships "evil"
and
2) the current pope has reinstated a HOlocaust denier. (incidentally said denier also thinks women should not go to university as it "unwomans" them).

I am being attacked for attacking the average-Catholic-in-the-Pew. Did I say anything about the average cathoic-in-the-pew? I'm MARRIED to one!

The pope attacks me, and *I'M* s'posed to apologize? (incidentally BP has also read these posts and agrees.)

The attitude that any criticism of the pope is de facto an insult to good souls like Fran or BP is crazy. As I've said before, i think the average Catholic is more Christian than the pope!

David said...

To the first "Anonymous" above: This blog does not allow anonymous comments. Please read the "about comments" section on the right-hand side of the main page. As one of the admins, I will delete any, add'l. anonymous comments.

WRT Ratzinger, is anyone seriously surprised that he wouldn't have much of a problem with a Nazi sympathizer / Holocaust denier ?

fear not/TheraP said...

Honestly, does anybody think that phrase (of the pope's) makes sense? It makes no logical sense to me.

A. a "tendency" is "ordered." Well, right there, where does this "order" come from? IT will disagree with me and come up with some scientific explanation, which I will agree with. But my first answer to the pope anyway is "God." If a tendency is "ordered" that order must come from God. But naturally, the pope doesn't listen to that part!

B. "ordered to an intrinsic moral evil" Ok, this is a geometry proof: If A, then you can't have B. How could God (sorry IT, we're addressing the pope here) create an order for the purpose of evil? I reject that part too.

C. This really would get an F in geometry or basic logic here. We have disproved point A and thus point B - and how can there be an "objective disorder"? Well, even if you could ever get to C, how can "order" be called "disorder"?

Think about it as a scientist, IT. Is this not the messiest theorem you've ever encountered? Is it not easily falsifiable?

I'm sorry, pope. If you cannot do better than this, you should step down!

P.S. One of the reasons I still call myself a Roman Catholic is for the pure joy of defying the pope! (Also, it permits such things as being a hospital communion minister volunteer, who really ministers - as in giving communion to people who have been ruled out by the pope. It gives me great joy to follow Jesus in this way!)

JCF said...

Bless you in your ministry, fear not/TheraP. YOU are a Roman Catholic, and NOT a Popoid (not to mention, you're a mensch/mensherin, too!)

***

God bless you in your ministry too, IT. ;-p

IT said...

I cried today. Stupid. I was at my dentist's (he's a friend and came to our wedding) and he cheerfully said, "How's married life treating you?" and I replied, waaay too seriously, "good for as long as it lasts," and then he wanted to know about the court case, and if we'd heard whether our marriage would last, and when we would KNOW, and how we are doing, etc etc and I had to go through it all again.

I walked out to the car afterwards and got in and cried tears of anger and frustration--not at my dear dentist, but at feeling I'm living betwixt and between, unresolved, at being A Thing whose fate is decided by courts and how the PropH8 people took my euphoric feeling that finally I was a Real Married Person with a real place in society, like everyone else, and they threw me back into the gutter and kicked me back into being an unwanted outsider.

And then I dried my eyes and went to work and tried, yet again, to get past it.

JCF said...

{{{IT}}}

David said...

yeah, {{{IT}}}

You are a real person, in all respects!

Arkansas Hillbilly said...

{{{{IT}}}}

If I could ask a semi-personal question... would you mind if I quoted your last post on my own blog? I've been posting some on another assinine law from here in Arkansas, and I would like to include your words in it. I'm mulling an article in my head about the human factor in all this. Too many folk out here just don't realize the impact of what they're doing, or the effect it has on other people.

Anonymous said...

Of course, AH. Quote what you like.
Thanks for the hugs, all.

IT

Erp said...

The marriage is real, let us hope the courts will see the injustice of annulling 18,000 marriages over the opposition of both parties and not do so. What needs to be done is make your marriage and the threatened marriages of others real to people who haven't considered the matter or think otherwise.

David G. said...

Ha!!

Marriage is real..LMAO!!!

D R E A M ~ O N ! ! ! !

Anonymous said...

{{{IT}}}

My ovaries have worked just fine after doctoral degree and faculty status... My patience with asshats like La Williamson is non-existent.

NancyP