tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post2859622478113694469..comments2023-11-10T09:15:40.084-08:00Comments on The Friends of Jake: The dangers of a University educationDavidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-69145770002475835432010-12-02T20:20:03.921-08:002010-12-02T20:20:03.921-08:00I think that sounds pretty typical, Jim P.
You ha...I think that sounds pretty typical, Jim P.<br /><br />You have to go to where THEY are asking the questions. You can't expect they'll come to church (synogogue, etc) to discuss them.<br /><br />[FYI (I've said this many times, so feel free to tune out, if this bores you): while I was raised in TEC, my actual ADULT faith came about as a result of the Episcopal Campus Ministry at UC Davis (1980-1984). The chaplain (a priest half-time at the local parish, half as chaplain) did come on campus, had regular hours there (mainly "hanging out" at the coffee house!) and was a stimulating presence . . . but we, the students, actually had OWNERSHIP of the ministry. Our response to anti-gay Wingnuts (in 1981, explicitly calling for the DEATH of gays: we're only about 30 years past Uganda, people!) was <b>completely life-changing</b> for me. I think it was safe to say that, after those 4 years, I was a Piskie for life! :-)]JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-24700802151419571642010-12-02T19:50:36.663-08:002010-12-02T19:50:36.663-08:00Primrose, I'm with you 100%. Campus ministry ...Primrose, I'm with you 100%. Campus ministry was what gave me the opportunity to explore my faith and planted seeds of my vocation.<br /><br />For those who are more involved with campus ministry and college-age persons. my query is this:<br /><br />My parish is 3 blocks from a university campus (the Loyola campus of Concordia University). My mission committee recently met with the campus chaplain (United Church of Canada, but partially funded by the Anglican diocese), and the context she described was very post-denominational -- students are very much searching spiritually, but rarely have a denominational or religious affiliation, nor are they looking for one. In other words, they are asking the big questions, but not looking for the answers in church or synagogue or mosque or what they represent. Needless to say, that leaves us (the parish) in a quandary in trying to figure out how we may fit into ministry on campus.<br /><br />My question is, is this unique to Quebec (where there is a pronounced secularist culture and a rejection of religious institutions), or is this common in other parts of North America?Jim Prattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-23474983430968570002010-12-02T16:17:55.280-08:002010-12-02T16:17:55.280-08:00Well, speaking of molecular biology, IT: I hope yo...Well, speaking of molecular biology, IT: I hope your next post will address this: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/12/nasa-finds-new-life/ (Hat-tip . . . Episcopal Cafe! ;-p)<br /><br />To break up the "Two Cultures" analogy some more: I'm the liberal arts (again, actually social studies. I would say the in-house phrase "social sciences", but I know that many "hard science" specialists consider "social sciences" an oxymoron!) major who ALWAYS assumes I can understand . . . well, damn near anything (one of the reasons my job applications range so broadly!). <br /><br />Now, scientists may not want to talk shop w/ *me* (Because I might, in conversation, sound like a typical 3 year-old: "Why? Why? Why? Why?" ad nauseum). But hey: I'm always confident I (per Yogi, "Smarter than the average bear") can speak informed/informatively about ANY subject! ;-)JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-15863357016339550352010-12-02T12:43:53.261-08:002010-12-02T12:43:53.261-08:00IIRC, the majority of practicing Episcopalians are...IIRC, the majority of practicing Episcopalians are adult converts -- during their college years (which is to say, dr. primrose is spot on!)Prior Aelredhttp://www.saintgregorysthreerivers.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-63576163637556572022010-12-02T09:42:45.598-08:002010-12-02T09:42:45.598-08:00Sorry, JCF, but I don't think that's gener...Sorry, JCF, but I don't think that's generally true--at least not of scientists. Engineers are very different. <br /><br />Although the fraction of nonbelievers in science is quite high (and I will post about this anon), few in my experience are prone to fundamentalist atheism (nor are they easy prey for other fundamentalisms). They are not generally very "spiritual" in a religious sense but that does not preclude a sense of awe and delight in the world they are dissecting, even if they don't believe there is a God in it. Some people might consider that a form of spirituality.<br /><br />It is one of the regrettable tendencies of the Two Cultures to disparage the scientific side for "not getting it". Yet it goes just as well the other way. To paraphrase CP Snow, why is it we consider a man ill-educated if he has never read Shakespeare but forgive him total ignorance of the most fundamental principles of physics or biology? <br /><br />(ALong those lines, it's amazing what a conversation stopper it is when someone asks me what my job is, and I tell them. Usually followed by my interlocutor's expression of self-deprecation, with almost a pride that they Don't Do Science, and an immediate change of subject. The thing is, I'm actually quite good at explaining what I do to the General Public, and it's a shame that they don't give me 5 minutes to find out.)<br /><br />WHen I was a Berkeley undergrad, I double majored in science and liberal arts subjects. I became quite weary of the Them vs Us attitude, which frankly was largely coming from the liberal arts side. <br /><br />A vivid example: of my classmates in a humanities class was horrified I was studying Molecular BIology. "Don't you have MORAL problems with that?" he demanded, as though only non-scientists had morality, as though science by its very BEING is immoral. Uh, no. I think figuring out how cells maintain genome integrity (and thus prevent cancer) is a pretty moral pursuit. <br /><br />By contrast, the scientists were (and are) generally too busy in the lab to worry about all this Them Vs Us stuff. You might argue that that's an inability to ask Big Questions, but the scientist thinks finding out how life works is a pretty damn Big Question. <br /><br /> The easy assumption that the scientists Don't Get It, and are more narrow and less self-aware than the Superior Humanists, that understanding how life works is just tinkering with unimportant details --it's all rather annoying. It's not unlike the easy disparagement that some religious people make about the atheists who Don't Get it, and are therefore less sophisticated or worldly than the Superior Faithful, and won't THEY be surprised some day! In both cases, there is a certain amount of condescension, which is, well, disrespectful.<br /><br />I'm clearly a bridge builder with a foot at least partially in both camps, but I do find it tiresome to be constantly mediating between Them vs Us.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-50629589407905742102010-12-01T22:23:39.720-08:002010-12-01T22:23:39.720-08:00Mohler's only upset w/ indoctrination by "...Mohler's only upset w/ indoctrination by "Brand Y", instead of his OWN Indoctrination Brand X! [Not that I think there are really very many indoctrinating professors outside of explicitly religious settings. And there was explicitly-religious me, who did NOT indoctrinate my students. In my religious courses, I gave high grades to religious students, I gave high grades to non-religious students, and vice-versa. I tried to prompt and promote thoughtful, quality work (whether I agreed w/ their conclusions or not). A student's personal belief-system is irrelevant to the quality of their work.]<br /><br />***<br /><br /><i>Students engaged with the liberal arts were more likely to become spiritual; those in math and science fields were less likely. Partying and overexposure to television and video games tended to inhibit spiritual growth. Community service and taking time to reflect — as well as class assignments that encouraged those endeavors — encouraged spirituality.</i><br /><br />I believe I speak for everyone here when I say "Duh." ;-/<br /><br />***<br /><br />As far as "those in math and science fields" go: love 'em, but they often have a tendency towards "<i>The</i> Right Answer" thinking. Whether it's Fundamentalist Theism or Fundamentalist Atheism. (No, not you, IT. Many exceptions to the rule.) It's we liberal arts (and/or social studies) types who have the fondness for checking BOTH the "T" and "F" boxes (of paradox)!<br /><br />I'm thinking of my brother. A partier (who got good grades, cuz he's brilliant) in high school, the partying diminished in college (Engineering). Having thrown off religion (TEC) in early adolescence, he was an apathetic agnostic . . . until, post-college (working in the defense industry), he got caught up in conservative Talk Radio religion {roll eyes}<br /><br />Now, he COULD be much worse (his particular flavor of conservative religion is Jewish, so it's not quite as rigid as the Fundagelicals). <br /><br />But I still think that, as a liberal arts major, he might have "Asked the Big Questions" in college, and not been a sitting duck for Dennis (effing) Prager! [He might not have worked for the military-industrial complex, either, but I digress... ;-/]JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-32859810103907732312010-12-01T18:53:48.520-08:002010-12-01T18:53:48.520-08:00I am beginning to understand how the Muslim world ...I am beginning to understand how the Muslim world abandoned its intellectual achievements and descended into fundamentalism. I wonder if the US is next.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02410143259690873128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-43629789447002471602010-12-01T18:33:51.086-08:002010-12-01T18:33:51.086-08:00As I tell me doc students, I get paid a lot of mon...As I tell me doc students, I get paid a lot of money to screw up your lives. <br /><br />A university education, if it's worth a damn, gets students to think in new and DIFFERENT ways, to reconsider what they believe, and how they act on those beliefs. <br /><br />If the university in question doesn't do that, they're offering intellectual pablum, nothing more. <br /><br />(And lots of places do this, both secular and sacred. Just sayin).calugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08181162384964123706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-23549205800319934692010-12-01T17:00:59.807-08:002010-12-01T17:00:59.807-08:00My biology teachers were very unhappy that I major...My biology teachers were very unhappy that I majored in history. I was one of those students who jumped up and down in excitement.<br /><br />I, too, hope I push 'em off the edge... when they come with their 'but I don't believe' fill in the blank routines... and I say --but, neither do I!it's margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13577280471100732619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-29889461671515380522010-12-01T09:30:54.503-08:002010-12-01T09:30:54.503-08:00Primrose, you are right--that's the subject fo...Primrose, you are right--that's the subject for a whole post on its own, by folks who know more about it than I do.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-59570737357917532162010-12-01T09:30:06.471-08:002010-12-01T09:30:06.471-08:00Great story, Marshall. Funny, all I see in the Kr...Great story, Marshall. Funny, all I see in the Krebs cycle is torture! (I never enjoyed metabolic biochemistry) but I certainly know what she means.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-68616290203885773862010-12-01T09:22:59.514-08:002010-12-01T09:22:59.514-08:00Just as an aside, IT, let me share a story you (an...Just as an aside, IT, let me share a story you (and others) will enjoy.<br /><br />Early in my wife's education as an RN/BSN, I came home from the hospital and was greeted with an excited, "I saw God today!"<br /><br />As my wife was not then (and is not really now) a "church-y" person, I was certainly interested. "And where today did you see God?"<br /><br />"In the Krebs Cycle!" she replied.<br /><br />(And what fun: my verification is "ration," so much a part of the <i>rational</i> for which your post is something of a <i>rationale</i>!Marshall Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-57695084400852826832010-12-01T09:19:34.779-08:002010-12-01T09:19:34.779-08:00This is why, in my opinion, one of the most effect...This is why, in my opinion, one of the most effective ways that TEC can spend money is establishing and maintaining good college chaplaincy programs.<br /><br />I know so may people who became Episcopalians in college during this period of questioning the faith of their upbringing. The could no longer accept the doctrine of the RCC or fundamental Protestantism and welcomed a place that they could ask a lot of questions about being considered heretics or being forced to accept a string of pre-set answers.<br /><br />People who want to save money by cutting college chaplaincy progams drive me nuts -- w/v "drone"!dr.primrosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-87304749086830910972010-12-01T08:33:28.564-08:002010-12-01T08:33:28.564-08:00And this is why we love you. I hope my children ar...And this is why we love you. I hope my children are fortunate enough to have many, many teachers like you!<br /><br />My son is taking Honors Biology right now and is REALLY excited about it! He's initiated some really interesting discussions with me lately---about genetics. :-)<br /><br />About your other points....<br /><br />We could easily teach young children to think critically and analytically--but we don't, because too many parents are afraid of losing "control" over their kids. All attempts at education reform that would give us a population that can think, ask questions, and analyze data have been met with BITTER opposition.<br /><br />Only 30% of the population makes it through college--which means that the vast majority never gets challenged, stretched, and taught to question and analyze. And you see the fruits of that in the vast levels of ignorance and gullibility that led to the results of the election....Wormwood's Doxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10882756844690851674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-89770742941628598012010-12-01T06:50:28.799-08:002010-12-01T06:50:28.799-08:00Amen and amen, IT!! Me, I'm not up on the cool...Amen and amen, IT!! Me, I'm not up on the coolness that is cell biology, but put abstract math in there and you could have been reading my mind. :) <br /><br />That's what college is *for*, to expose people to new ideas and other ways of thinking. This fear of new ideas is simply appalling.textjunkienoreply@blogger.com