tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post8788213186504955182..comments2023-11-10T09:15:40.084-08:00Comments on The Friends of Jake: Theo Hobson On the Death of Liberal AnglicanismDavidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-7410487510299403982008-08-07T15:52:00.000-07:002008-08-07T15:52:00.000-07:00Mimi,there you go, being direct and sensible again...Mimi,there you go, being direct and sensible again. <BR/><BR/>Amen, and let's ban obfuscation. (And if you don't know what obfuscation means, that's part of my point.)Jane Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13814517077774999407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-31515498897147430312008-08-06T15:12:00.000-07:002008-08-06T15:12:00.000-07:00What Mimi said (and what Kurt said: don't mourn, o...What Mimi said (and what Kurt said: <B>don't mourn, organize!</B>)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-41555826846238590222008-08-06T10:54:00.000-07:002008-08-06T10:54:00.000-07:00TEC should do the right thing and ignore the morat...TEC should do the right thing and ignore the moratoria, but it should not walk. We should wait for the eviction notice.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-15192682127639593132008-08-05T21:12:00.000-07:002008-08-05T21:12:00.000-07:00I'm sorry, but I don't find the example of ERD to ...I'm sorry, but I don't find the example of ERD to be convincing that we need the AC to continue good work. It simply does not back that up in any real way. <BR/><BR/>As for changing the institution from within, this institution is an immovable impediment in its own change. It's not realistic to expect that we can change it from within, because - as evidenced by the incredible timidity of most of our bishops at Lambeth - the institution changes those sent into it.<BR/><BR/>Finally, once again, there is nothing to evidence - and I am listening, believe me - that the AC is any substantive aid to Christian mission, or that there are any benefits to outweigh the clear liabilities inherent in the current leadership in the AC. Williams, and through him, Canterbury, has become an instrument of <I>disunity</I>. <BR/><BR/>I'm just not buying that this is the continuation of a dynamic life together rather than an atrophy arising from the unwillingness to grow, expand, and separate. The AC cannot help us to fulfill our ministries, from what I've been shown, and is actively blocking them.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-77762714228230985712008-08-05T08:01:00.000-07:002008-08-05T08:01:00.000-07:00The Chicago Consultation is one effort at organizi...The <A HREF="http://www.chicagoconsultation.org/" REL="nofollow">Chicago Consultation</A> is one effort at organizing progressives. They will be meeting again in the Fall and in the Spring to organize towards General Convention.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-47855792771347158762008-08-05T07:45:00.000-07:002008-08-05T07:45:00.000-07:00I think that Theo is wrong. He’s just too pessimis...I think that Theo is wrong. He’s just too pessimistic. Liberal Anglicans do have to organize, however. We have to make our presence felt, not only in the bastions of liberalism (such as they are), but also in places like Nigeria, Sydney, and the Middle East. These conservative, evo areas must have at least some disaffected liberals who can be organized, aided and supported. So, let’s do it!<BR/><BR/>Rowan Williams has Lambeth, the evos and right-wing catholics have GAFCON. One thing that we liberals should do, I think, is to have our own international network focusing on liberal Anglicanism. Perhaps call our own international conference. A good place to have it would be in South Africa. Canada, the USA, Japan, most of Latin America (except for the Cone), Scotland, New Zealand, Australia (minus Sydney) etc. would probably make a good showing that there is a liberal Anglicanism that is accepting of all people. It would, I think, be helpful to organizing the liberal “faction” within Anglicanism.Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10032216707367304535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-49149539014639119212008-08-05T07:44:00.000-07:002008-08-05T07:44:00.000-07:00Reverend Boy --Another voice for staying here. HT...Reverend Boy --Another voice for staying <A HREF="http://teaheepeehee.wordpress.com/2008/08/05/lambeth-lamb-bake/" REL="nofollow">here</A>. HT to FranIAm.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-14052989717712928462008-08-05T07:17:00.000-07:002008-08-05T07:17:00.000-07:00Dear Scott:Sorry to have a personal conversation b...Dear Scott:<BR/><BR/>Sorry to have a personal conversation but, I need to disabuse you of your assumptions and then silently drift away back to lurker land. Of course, that was the situation with the former boss (oh so many years ago). We did need to fight our own battles knowing that support from above was not likely to come. You really do need to know a bit more about me before using the term subservient. It is inapt and one that I have never had directed toward my behavior before. Always nice to have a new experience.Pamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16196106878579595375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-84596481813331222212008-08-05T07:14:00.000-07:002008-08-05T07:14:00.000-07:00Having lived through battles big and small (anyone...Having lived through battles big and small (anyone remember having to wear hats in church?) -- I think one needs to fight injustice where one finds it and has some access to make a difference. Every organization has sexism, racism heterosexism, etc --- TEC and the AC is no different. Walking away just leaves the field to those who would continue the oppression. Look at the work of Episcopal Relief and Development for an example of being able to go where others cannot. Each project requires a cross section of the community - men and women - to over see it. It is the <A HREF="http://www.starfishdifference.com/" REL="nofollow">starfish</A> story - but it is all I know.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-14988270331985975492008-08-05T07:08:00.000-07:002008-08-05T07:08:00.000-07:00Susan Russell reflects as she flies home hereSusan Russell reflects as she flies home <A HREF="http://inchatatime.blogspot.com/2008/08/lambeth-reflections.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-89542110246852927502008-08-05T05:39:00.000-07:002008-08-05T05:39:00.000-07:00As I have said before, there is no way to save the...As I have said before, there is no way to save the Anglican Communion (in any form worth saving, anyway) unless we are willing to walk away from it. We don't require an institutional Anglican Communion to do good works abroad. Anyone who concludes that the Anglican Communion has, on balance, been an asset to TEC in recent years needs to relearn arithmetic.<BR/><BR/>It is time to stand up for the <I>via media</I>. Many of the insurgents in TEC have been radical Protestants. Rowan has shown himself to be radically Catholic, and he would sell out his mother to achieve peace and unity. His manipulation of the Communion with all his commissions and committees is shameful.<BR/><BR/>It is time to say we won't play his game. Why are we afraid to be thrown out of a burning building?Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-64583820233088682642008-08-05T02:31:00.000-07:002008-08-05T02:31:00.000-07:00It strikes me that the author of this article, bei...It strikes me that the author of this article, being from the U.K., automatically translates "Anglican Communion" as "Church of England."<BR/><BR/>Liberalism <I>may</I> be ailing in the CofE, but I don't think the same can be said for places west of the Irish Sea coastline or north of Hadrian's Wall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-47972121698084032352008-08-04T23:26:00.000-07:002008-08-04T23:26:00.000-07:00But then, of course we wouldn't be at the table fo...<I>But then, of course we wouldn't be at the table for the things that the WAC is doing that actually matter - defeating poverty and violence against women</I><BR/><BR/>I would agree <I>if</I> someone were actually able to prove that we can do this better through the AC than through redirecting our own funds directly into relief and intervention.<BR/><BR/>So far no one has even offered to do so. <BR/><BR/>Without that proof, we'd do better to cut overhead - supporting the AC - and establish ourselves.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-59061827161315611612008-08-04T22:37:00.000-07:002008-08-04T22:37:00.000-07:00Pam,I'll take that as a challenge (I like challeng...Pam,<BR/><BR/>I'll take that as a challenge (I like challenges), and I'll assure you that, 'though I'm a "boss" and know which battles to fight, when I hear voices like yours, I know that I am reassured that I am fighting the right one. Stop being subservient. Step up to the plate and take charge of your situation.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for being so direct, but dependency makes me more and more crazy the older I get.<BR/><BR/>It's *your* Church.<BR/><BR/>Blessings, deep blessings....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-3203243839258778242008-08-04T21:47:00.000-07:002008-08-04T21:47:00.000-07:00What will happen? I don't know but it seems to dep...What will happen? I don't know but it seems to depend - do the Bishops of TEC identify more with the Anglican Communion or with TEC? For me, there is no contest. I joined the Episcopal Church the fact that it was part of the AC was nice but of little real importance. <BR/><BR/>I hope that our TEC Bishops find their first responsibility to their members - gay, straight or in between. <BR/><BR/>I hope that msny of our Bishops will feel as +Andrus <BR/>"Archbishop Rowan in his final presidential address, given just after we received the reflections document noted that, “There will be some who cannot abide by these moratoria, and in this they signal that there are steps to deeper unity they cannot take; or it may be that they conceive of deeper unity in other ways.” I take this to be a profound and generous idea. In not abiding by the moratorium on same-sex blessings I take it as incumbent on me and on us in the Diocese to actively labor to both understand the position of those to whom that moratorium is important, and to convey the reality of our life together to the world. I must redouble my efforts at inhabiting a deeper unity."<BR/><BR/>But, in reality, I have little hope that our Bishops will find standing by their belief in inclusiveness is more important than the ensuring they get along in the AC.<BR/><BR/>They remind me a bit of a boss I once had who always said "I only fight the big battles" -- but, strangely, no battle was actually big enough for her to fight.Pamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16196106878579595375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-2724240343426191672008-08-04T21:16:00.000-07:002008-08-04T21:16:00.000-07:00I'm not sure who I agree with. So, I'll just speak...I'm not sure who I agree with. So, I'll just speak for myself and for the people amongst whom it is my privilege to live.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to beg you y'all's indulgence to be an adopted plain speakin' New England swamp yankee about all this. "The Church is the people." Go ahead, dispute it if you can. I don't think you can. End of rant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-39202597567142057942008-08-04T20:43:00.000-07:002008-08-04T20:43:00.000-07:00The Pluralist does not agree with Hobson hereThe Pluralist does not agree with Hobson <A HREF="http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/2008/08/thirty-seconds.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-17795866474022957802008-08-04T20:27:00.000-07:002008-08-04T20:27:00.000-07:00* I think Hobson is off-base---at least, at THIS p...* I think Hobson is off-base---at least, at THIS point.<BR/><BR/>* That said, it's time to start lobbying GC (esp. the HofB NOW): no throwing LGBTs under the bus for 10 MORE YEARS (9 more, after GC 2009), on the vain hope of getting another Lambeth invite in 2018! (Or a Primate invite in 2009, for that matter)<BR/><BR/>* Keep on, keepin' on... God give us strength!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-48978830571860800212008-08-04T19:17:00.000-07:002008-08-04T19:17:00.000-07:00And yes - I think I will stay -- keep on keeping o...And yes - I think I will stay -- keep on keeping on.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-53313754960476225662008-08-04T19:16:00.000-07:002008-08-04T19:16:00.000-07:00Seems to be a sense among commenters (and I agree ...Seems to be a sense among commenters (and I agree it may be too early to tell much) 1. ABC and WCG are hell bent on institutional answers 2. Indaba offers another way of walking along with our messy ideas.<BR/>Xico posts <A HREF="http://xicoassis.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">here</A> from the Global Center.<BR/>Katie Sherrod posts <A HREF="http://wildernessgarden.blogspot.com/2008/08/where-anglican-communion-lives.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>, "Where the Anglican Communion lives."Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-44061199640775665002008-08-04T18:58:00.000-07:002008-08-04T18:58:00.000-07:00Elizabeth,Try establishing a new password at your ...Elizabeth,<BR/><BR/>Try establishing a new password at your google account. Works every time!<BR/><BR/>:-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-67108593494237901832008-08-04T18:54:00.000-07:002008-08-04T18:54:00.000-07:00Sorry, the anon. above was mine. I can't seem to ...Sorry, the anon. above was mine. I can't seem to get my password to work.<BR/><BR/>ElizabethAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-29339083759072101282008-08-04T18:52:00.000-07:002008-08-04T18:52:00.000-07:00I have come to the conclusion that the best sacrif...I have come to the conclusion that the best sacrifice TEC can make is to relinquish it's connection to Canterbury. The world gains nothing by our compromising our baptismal ecclesiology. In fact, our witness to the worldwide faith community is probably stronger if we are willing to simply say no to the ecclesiastical terrorists.<BR/><BR/>If TEC agrees to Williams' demands (and let's face it, that is precisely what they are even though he has no right or authority to ask it of us) then it places clergy like me in an impossible bind: my baptismal vows in conflict with my ordination vows. How in the world can we ask people to participate in their own oppression?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-80905614112500209232008-08-04T18:51:00.000-07:002008-08-04T18:51:00.000-07:00I believe it is too early to sound taps on the Ang...I believe it is too early to sound taps on the Anglican Communion. I do think that, if he is not careful, ABC will bring about what he is trying to avoid. You can't appease those who want to go back to the Middle Ages. They have already declared the ABC irrelevant. If the "liberals" go that will most of the wealthy provinces. He will be left with a few who are willing to go along. But, as I said, I think it is too early to tell.<BR/> Some good things seemed to come out of Lambeth. The blogs of the Bishops sounded very hopeful to me. I think that Maslow's hierarchy of needs is an important point here. In many parts of the world, there is no guarentee of the basics: food, water, shelter, and personal safety. Without those, things like full inclusion have no real meaning. So the church needs to also focus a lot of attention on those needs. It sounded to me like there may be some good things, bishop to bishop, diocese to diocese that will broaden the focus from "sex" to all of the needs of humanity. That is something we "liberals" can definitely get behind. This may be the way we have to go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-80935876979821715282008-08-04T18:31:00.000-07:002008-08-04T18:31:00.000-07:00I don't know what's going to happen other than, 1)...I don't know what's going to happen other than, 1) So. Cone/Gafconites/FOCA will continue to pilfer, 2) some US dioceses will continue as usual, 3) causes a heckuva prob. for GC 2009 and, 4) more litigation.<BR/><BR/>In other words, same as now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com