tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post7809196498546220630..comments2023-11-10T09:15:40.084-08:00Comments on The Friends of Jake: More on Evangelical outreach, and being boldDavidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-45845871714977917372010-04-30T01:58:41.970-07:002010-04-30T01:58:41.970-07:00Brilliant post, IT, and an excellent comment threa...Brilliant post, IT, and an excellent comment thread!<br /><br />What I would really like to know is what Andrew Marin means when he says that he "loves" us. Love is a completely devalued word when used by Christians (and have you noticed that he disappears from every blog he pops up in as soon as anyone asks more searching questions?).<br /><br />I rather appreciate James Alison's theology that God not only loves us but actually likes us, and that's the only definition of love I will accept as valid.<br /><br />But Christians have done awful things in the name of loving human beings - "cruel to be kind" must have been a Christian invention...<br /><br />I agree with IT that I don't want to be tolerated, but I also have to accept that I need to speak to people who merely tolerate me in order to change their hearts about me. Especially if, like IT, you live in a country where the intolerant lot has a lot of political power over your life and changing their minds is of paramount importance.<br /><br />The conversation has to happen. But with Dah-veed I think it's important that we know exactly who it is we're talking to and that we aren't blinded by superficial protestations of "love".Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-64474961580788325122009-08-22T22:54:59.737-07:002009-08-22T22:54:59.737-07:00Wofie, may I add that I'm really happy you'...Wofie, may I add that I'm really happy you've stopped by here at FoJ.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-43584605193533979192009-08-22T18:53:28.107-07:002009-08-22T18:53:28.107-07:00It is a shame that, when heterosexuals attempt to ...It is a shame that, when heterosexuals attempt to understand same sex attraction, they seldom think to draw analogies to their own experience of heterosexual love.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02410143259690873128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-17206998378177222032009-08-22T17:54:16.671-07:002009-08-22T17:54:16.671-07:00Thank you wolfie for a moving testament to what lo...Thank you wolfie for a moving testament to what love really is.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-8972112169228750232009-08-22T16:02:22.694-07:002009-08-22T16:02:22.694-07:00Street Prophets!
That explains why your username ...Street Prophets!<br /><br />That explains why your username sounded so familiar, Werewolf Prophet! I believe I've read some of your posts before. Good stuff, as I recall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-33666967869194802822009-08-22T12:14:48.039-07:002009-08-22T12:14:48.039-07:00IT said...
"... if we lost the sexual part o...IT said...<br /><br /><i>"... if we lost the sexual part of our marriage for any reason, we would still be joyfully ... in love. There is so much more to love than sex."</i><br /><br />My partner had been quite sick for at least 18 months before he died, so I've been down the road of loss of the sex act. Yet, four days before he was gone, we made love <i><b>and neither genitals nor orgasm were involved, or even the intent!</b></i><br /><br />I wrote about it over at <a href="http://www.streetprophets.com/" rel="nofollow">Street Prophets</a> in my diary <a href="http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2006/4/22/3524/48159" rel="nofollow">To Make Love Before Dying: A Witness God Blesses Gay Relationships</a>; I invite everybody here to read it, and especially Andrew Marin.The Werewolf prophethttp://www.streetprophets.com/user/The%20Werewolf%20Prophetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-69824335321252119262009-08-22T10:30:08.588-07:002009-08-22T10:30:08.588-07:00I agree, Wolfie. As I've said elsewhere, my m...I agree, Wolfie. As I've said elsewhere, my marriage is not defined by a sexual act, and if we lost the sexual part of our marriage for any reason, we would still be joyfully two lesbians in love.<br /><br />There is so much more to love than sex.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-46851707977609495832009-08-21T22:57:41.208-07:002009-08-21T22:57:41.208-07:00What continues to be missing from the Evangelical ...What continues to be missing from the Evangelical POV about GLBT folk is the concept that "gay" is FIRST about who we fall in love with, then a far second about who we fuck.<br /><br />Case in point: my partner died from cancer a bit more than 8 years ago and I've been celibate since, initially due to grief but now due to age & health issues. But does my lack of "same-sex sexual activity" make me any less gay? Of course not! I still love my deceased partner in the same way that Marin loves his wife, and should I be lucky one last time, I'll love the new man in my life the same way, too.<br /><br />Evangelicals have no clue that human sexual love has many variations because the cannot do shades of gray. To them, heterosexuality is not the norm, it's the only possible way to be and therefore homosexuality MUST be 1) deviant and 2) chosen.The Werewolf Prophethttp://www.streetprophets.com/user/The%20Werewolf%20Prophetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-35959986096783364442009-08-21T18:32:16.606-07:002009-08-21T18:32:16.606-07:00Thank you for posting the other reviews. I had hea...Thank you for posting the other reviews. I had heard about this book on another blog, but was not interested in going to Fulcrum for a review.<br /><br />IT, it is not uncommon for conservative evangelicals to deny the label "christian" to quite a few of us. "Christian" apparently refers to a select few who think alike, rather than to the full diversity of Christian thought. And yes, this is something which has annoyed me for several decades.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02410143259690873128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-85467599962644474902009-08-21T18:23:29.757-07:002009-08-21T18:23:29.757-07:00Unconditionally love the sinner, and unconditional...Unconditionally love the sinner, and unconditionally hate the sin.<br /><br />'nuff said.<br /><br />The psychologist in me has to wonder what the infatuation with this subject matter is about?Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-32418227083137399402009-08-21T16:56:41.436-07:002009-08-21T16:56:41.436-07:00Thanks for stopping by, Andrew. We appreciate the...Thanks for stopping by, Andrew. We appreciate the efforts at dialogue!IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-20540028559642337022009-08-21T16:37:28.324-07:002009-08-21T16:37:28.324-07:00For what it's worth, I'm not trying to cha...For what it's worth, I'm not trying to change the evangelical church to tolerate you. I'm trying to show them how to unconditionally love you no matter what - just like they do so easily with most with every other population of people.<br /><br />Length of time is not an easy thing to handle. But that's what this bridge building work is for.<br /><br />Much love.Andrew Marinhttp://www.loveisanorientation.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-9135340630880193902009-08-21T13:59:03.493-07:002009-08-21T13:59:03.493-07:00Thank you Jarred, for the insights. They are help...Thank you Jarred, for the insights. They are helpful. I don't find the Evangelical mind easy to understand. There are so many examples where Biblical inerrancy is specifically disproven (Divorce being an obvious one). I also find the emphasis on converting others to be tiresome. And finally, the unwillingness to learn more lest one go astray ....that's one I simply can't understand. 180° opposed. It seems a faith-orientation based on fear.<br /><br />My stepson's ex girlfriend is of an Evangelical bent. We took her to evensong with us one Sunday and she thumbed through the hymnal looking, as she put it, for "Christian" hymns. Apparently she didn't consider the Episcopal cathedral "Christian". WTF?<br /><br />Good for you to continue to engage your sister....and the Friends of Jake. ;-)IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-2053533627912714462009-08-21T13:36:32.977-07:002009-08-21T13:36:32.977-07:00Also, I would like to offer a suggestion to put th...Also, I would like to offer a suggestion to put this whole discussion in a slightly different perspective:<br /><br />I am firmly convinced a lot of evangelicals fear that they may jeopardize the eternal well-being of their souls if they're not careful how they engage GLBT people and the topic of sexual orientation. As such, they find themselves feeling like they're walking a terrible tightrope.<br /><br />The evangelicals I know are very big on the whole Biblical inerrancy thing -- and even "Biblical literalism" to some degree or another. So to them, to question what they've come to understand the Bible to say about homosexuality is to question the Bible as a whole. It's simply an all-or-nothing gambit in their minds in many cases.<br /><br />That makes it hard to talk to GLBT people. Because if you start talking to them and find out that they and their relationships really don't fit those preconceived notions. And if that happens, well whatever things are going to start falling off their theology? What's going to be left?<br /><br />As a point of comparison, let me give you a personal anecdote. When I converted to Paganism, I gave my sister a recommended reading list so that she could understand what I believed. During one of our...more heated conversations about a year later, I asked if she had yet read any of the books I recommended. She said she had not and when I inquired as to the reason, she indicated it was because she didn't want to read anything that might "lead her astray." To her mind, even learning about what I believed offered too great a chance of jeopardizing her own salvation. And I don't think that's an uncommon mentality among evangelicals.<br /><br />Another dimension to this to consider is that many evangelicals tend to have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility for <i>other people's souls</i>. There's this idea that if they remain quiet about sin, they are somehow condoning it to the point of being <i>complicit</i> in it. So when the person they didn't "warn" is punished, they fear actually being held responsible -- and even punished -- as well.<br /><br />I don't say any of this to defend evangelical's reticence, mind you. I'm simply trying to put things in perspective. Because I do think their fears of the potential consequences -- which may include damnation -- is one of the biggest obstacles in conversation. In many ways, those willing to communicate at all are taking huge risks in some people's minds. (And they're getting criticized for it as well.)<br /><br />-- Jarred.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-1319923034483142412009-08-21T12:30:26.595-07:002009-08-21T12:30:26.595-07:00Mind if I plug a few links? Blogger Joe Moderate ...Mind if I plug a few links? Blogger Joe Moderate has also <a href="http://joemoderate.blogspot.com/2009/07/joe-does-not-recommend-love-is.html" rel="nofollow">reviewed Marin's book</a>. He's rather critical of it.<br /><br />For more discussion of evangelical-gay communication, I'd also recommend checking out <a href="http://btgproject.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Bridging the Gap</a>, run by Wendy Gritter (currently on sabbatical, sadly) and Brian Pengelly. Especially check out some of the links in their sidebar from their synchroblog. You might particularly be interested in <a href="http://www.nathancolquhoun.com/blog/index.php/2009/06/24/the-question-of-homosexuality-is-the-wro" rel="nofollow">Nathan Colquhoun's contribution</a>, as he somewhat redresses the tendency to look at same-sex relationships in terms of sex only.<br /><br />-- Jarred.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com