tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post4735562547827968637..comments2023-11-10T09:15:40.084-08:00Comments on The Friends of Jake: Karen Armstrong, mystery, and getting alongDavidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-18218697937696607972009-10-10T10:50:56.362-07:002009-10-10T10:50:56.362-07:00We know, dear IT!We know, dear IT!Göran Koch-Swahnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00925549945659350649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-38153695413948442742009-10-09T08:30:47.899-07:002009-10-09T08:30:47.899-07:00You are very fortunate, Erika. It's a monstrou...You are very fortunate, Erika. It's a monstrous problem here.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-264964316133546292009-10-09T02:41:29.915-07:002009-10-09T02:41:29.915-07:00I'm with Göran, I am still completely bemused ...I'm with Göran, I am still completely bemused by this whole conversation, which simply is not an issue anywhere in Europe, or at least only among the lunatic fringe Christians and the most militant atheists.<br /><br />I don't know a single Christian who sees any tension between religion and science.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-1427406956245348422009-10-08T19:28:29.567-07:002009-10-08T19:28:29.567-07:00A couple of quick comments.
On the validity of pe...A couple of quick comments.<br /><br />On the validity of personal (subjective) experience--read Ken Wilber on the four quadrants of knowledge and the validity of both interior (subjective) and exterior (objective) knowledge. A good starting point is his book <i>A Brief History of Everything</i>. Objective knowledge is the basis of science, and that is extremely important, because it is the proper way to deal with the reality of the external world. Those who reject spiritual knowledge because it is incompatible with objectivity implicitly believe that there is no other reality than that which can be known scientifically/objectively. This is actually a matter of faith for them but they do not realize or do not acknowledge that--they just see it as a given and do not comprehend that any alternative could also be valid. As Karen Armstrong shows, a good deal of our problem is that people of spiritual faith have bought into the same error ("science envy") without realizing it. <br /><br />The other thought--which I primarily owe to Marcus Borg--is that we fail to understand the difference between believing <i>in</i> and believing <i>that</i>. Believing <i>in</i> is to put our faith and trust in God; believing <i>that</i> is to assent to certain statements about God (although this is admittedly confused by the fact that we use the phrase believing <i>in</i> both ways). This is what I think Armstrong is getting at where the reviewer states "These and other thinkers, she writes, understood faith primarily as a practice, rather than as a system — not as 'something that people thought but something they did.'"<br /><br />Bill GhristAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-3316291998532197292009-10-08T17:42:24.858-07:002009-10-08T17:42:24.858-07:00Shameless, off-topic, off-site blog entry pimping ...Shameless, off-topic, off-site blog entry pimping :<br><a href="http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2009/10/8/20423/4195" rel="nofollow">The Episcopal Church - 3; Schismatic Property Thieves - 0</a>The Werewolf Prophethttp://www.streetprophets.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-56925565685011791792009-10-08T16:33:56.529-07:002009-10-08T16:33:56.529-07:00Wonderful contribution to the dialogue I've be...Wonderful contribution to the dialogue I've been having with friends. This post is being shared on Facebook as an important contribution to the discussion. Thanks.RENZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981050766307343246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-86293853814120337242009-10-08T16:28:43.415-07:002009-10-08T16:28:43.415-07:00I am looking forward to this book as well. I enjoy...I am looking forward to this book as well. I enjoy Karen Armstrong's books, even though I sometimes feel I don't quite have the prerequisites to understand all of it. There seems to be a theme in her recent work of finding a way that "we can all get along." Some of that is a rejection of the emphasis on doctrine, and a return to mystery and contemplation. I would welcome that. When religious types insist on having everything explained out to the last detail, you loose the sense of mystery and awe that one should feel toward the divine. I get more of that from science than from religion these days, which is completely backward. At least, the scientists are in touch with the level of their own ignorance. In matters of faith, where our ignorance is so much greater, we need to dial up the mystery a bit.Paul Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-7036535860344099162009-10-08T11:32:06.053-07:002009-10-08T11:32:06.053-07:00not as “something that people thought but somethin...<i>not as “something that people thought but something they did.”</i><br /><br />Rather like Love itself. A verb, not a noun...Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-71883272949354258512009-10-08T09:10:22.014-07:002009-10-08T09:10:22.014-07:00We started this book in our Theology Pub at home. ...We started this book in our Theology Pub at home. So far it is a great read.Rev. Raggsdalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13758964410206834685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-42248875239471571592009-10-08T09:08:18.276-07:002009-10-08T09:08:18.276-07:00Ah, watch that objectivist stuff, Jake! That'...Ah, watch that objectivist stuff, Jake! That's a word fraught in so many ways, thanks to politics .... empiricist is probably safer. Yes, the personal experience justification is generally rejected. In legal circles, it's well known that testimony even by eye-witnesses can be <a rel="nofollow">quite in error.</a> GIve me a DNA fingerprint any day. <br /><br />Funny though, you seem to be just as fascinated by the atheists as I am by the faithful! <br /><br />Interestingly, when I posted this on StreetProphets, several commenters there jumped on my remarks about mystery and that I prefer not to dissect the neuronal basis of love or belief. They like the prospect of knowing "how it works". It's funny that I, the scientist closest to knowing, in some regards, would prefer not. ;-)<br /><br />Of course, that's not to say that it's not knowable. Then again, I drift back to the Victorians,<br /><i><br />Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,<br />Or what's a heaven for? All is silver-grey,<br />Placid and perfect with my art: the worse!<br />I know both what I want and what might gain,<br />And yet how profitless to know, to sigh<br />"Had I been two, another and myself,<br />"Our head would have o'erlooked the world!" No doubt.</i>IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-77858533625348964232009-10-08T08:45:27.268-07:002009-10-08T08:45:27.268-07:00Thanks for this, IT.
I ordered the book as soon a...Thanks for this, IT.<br /><br />I ordered the book as soon as I saw the review a couple of days ago. Armstrong's work on The Great Transformation, Battle for God, and Islam have been very helpful to me in the past. I'm looking forward to her most recent book.<br /><br />One of my latest "fun" pastimes is a chat room in which theists and atheists debate. I stumbled in there some months ago as I was struggling to get my head around the atheist world view. I've found it fascinating. <br /><br />However, I've also found myself ill prepared to counter some of the more empirically based arguments. It is tough when personal experience is simply dismissed as too subjective to be considered valid evidence! I mean, when you take away experience, we don't have much left.<br /><br />So, I'm hoping that Armstrong might be helpful in at least offering a few more nuanced approaches to those debates. <br /><br />Not that "winning" the debate is the point of this new pastime; I usually just listen, in a desire to understand. But, it would be nice once in awhile to be taken seriously by the empiricists (or should I call them "objectivists"?)Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13579571802576738609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-88471151928812188582009-10-08T07:31:35.979-07:002009-10-08T07:31:35.979-07:00Also, Klady, I think that Armstrong is arguing for...Also, Klady, I think that Armstrong is arguing for a "both/and" rather than Douthat who sees it as an "either/or". <br /><br />And I think when he writes,<br /><i>This explains why liberal religion tends to be parasitic on more dogmatic forms of faith, which create and sustain the practices that the liberal believer picks and chooses from, reads symbolically and reinterprets for a more enlightened age</i> he's showing his snarky colors. <br /><br />It's kind of like the Episcopal/Anglican attitude towards confession: All may, none must, some should. Douthat, an authoritarian who is uncomfortable with big tents, believes all must. He must be very happy with Pope Benedict who has no problem with a smaller, purer RC church.<br /><br />I'd rather keep the Galileos, myself. And keep the trans-substiationists (like my wife) along side those of more....shall we say, symbolic bent?IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-64023645899273154432009-10-08T07:24:17.998-07:002009-10-08T07:24:17.998-07:00Göran, as Monty Python afficionadoes would say, &q...Göran, as Monty Python afficionadoes would say, "it's not dead yet!"<br /><br />Klady, thank you for the kind words.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-54191440970808297142009-10-08T01:39:10.836-07:002009-10-08T01:39:10.836-07:00To me the change, which Douthat attributes to Epis...To me the change, which Douthat attributes to Episcopalian Modernism, is less to do with Eastern theology, as about the re-discovery of Christianity's Jewish roots after 1945; the new perspective on Paul (so misunderstood by "NT" Wrong and others) and all that. <br /><br />In short that the Hellenist compromise/distortion with it's pretence that Indo European Philosphy be science instead of their religion, is finally going away.Göran Koch-Swahnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00925549945659350649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-69610016017221649392009-10-08T01:27:15.243-07:002009-10-08T01:27:15.243-07:00Very interesting indeed, dear IT! But largely, I w...Very interesting indeed, dear IT! But largely, I would say, confined to the USA and the American anti Modern way of life... <br /><br />Most over here have not this kind of supposed contradictions (although there was a debate Science contra Religion in the early 1950ies...).Göran Koch-Swahnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00925549945659350649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-13403871025762290912009-10-08T01:02:17.368-07:002009-10-08T01:02:17.368-07:00IT, leave it to you to write the most insightful t...IT, leave it to you to write the most insightful things about religion. I love this essay of yours and will keep it for re-reading. <br /><br /><br />Thanks also for the tip on the new Karen Armstrong book - she's long one of my favorite writers - and for the link to the NY Times Book Review, which so oddly manages to both capture some of the best of Armstrong and, at the same time, make the case (for me, at least) against Roman Catholicism (flourishes like, "But without the doctrine of transubstantiation, the Mass would not exist to provide that nourishment").kladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09526715552795733402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8238382886103256219.post-29892643848665001332009-10-07T21:54:23.916-07:002009-10-07T21:54:23.916-07:00Wow! This is an excellent article. Thank you IT....Wow! This is an excellent article. Thank you IT. I'm off to put the book on my "wish list".SimplySuzihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00011205084066908351noreply@blogger.com